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| Discussion Room Thread |
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 "Money & Power" by Jacques Ellul |
| By Dustin - 07 Jan 08 |
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 10 Replie(s)
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Dustin |
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Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:42 am |
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Well, by this time, you should have completed the first, very short, section of Jacques Ellul's work "Money and Power." Thus, I open up this thread to begin the discussion.
I think I'll begin by mentioning the section which struck me the most--when he talked of stewardship. He writes:
"The idea of stewardship is a useful reminder that we do not own our belongings and that we will have an account to give, but it becomes downright vicious when we use it to justify ourselves, when it permits us to fix in concrete what God wants us to submit to the Holy Spirit."
What struck me most about this particular quotation is how often I use stewardship, specifically tithing, as the limit of that which belongs to God. In many ways, our ecclesiastical communities talk of stewardship in veiled terms, as if only that 10% (or whatever percent is being discussed) belongs to God, and we don't care what happens with the rest. Yet, as Ellul points out, God clearly cares about all our possessions, because they all belong to God. They have simply been placed in our trust to use wisely--but I have to ask: how many of us are using ALL of our resources wisely? And what does that mean?
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Alexa |
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Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:46 am |
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ooh! good stuff to start with, dustin! it all belongs to God... and yet in the "American Dream" mindset, people often think they have earned it and they pay their dues (10% or whatever to God) and the rest is theirs to do with whatever they please. how hard to fight human nature and see beyond myself to not cling selfishly to what is "mine" ALL of the time and in EVERY situation.
as i was reading, i was also struck by thoughts of Jesus and how he functioned in the economic/social system he lived in... how people wanted him to overthrow the current system and change it all up, but it wasn't about that- like Elllul pointed out, the system doesn't matter.
(*side note: i am heading off to India in a couple of days and will be technologically separated from you all for a week or so. you won't be hearing from me for a bit, but i hope to jump right back into the discussion when i return! peace to you all.)
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Dustin |
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Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:50 pm |
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Alexa,
Thanks for your thoughts.
As someone who has always looked to "alternative" economic/political systems to solve the problems I see around me (until recently), I thought Ellul's discussion of utter uselessness of the system to solve the personal side of the problem very convincing.
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Dustin |
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Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:55 am |
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My apologies for being late to post anything regarding this week's section of reading. Between work and school, it's been a tough week.
I just finished reading Ellul's section on the Old Testament and found it quite fascinating. I was especially drawn to the idea that the Old Testament presents wealth as a blessing, but even in that blessing, the abundance is a sign that God does not simply give what is necessary, but gives abundantly. As I read it, I was reminded of the two "feeding" stories which occur in the Gospels--the narratives of which have always made me wonder why there were 'leftovers.' Yet, in God's abundance, God gives generously, and not just "enough."
As I tried to think of a similar, contemporary example, I was reminded of the $10,000 "money drop" Shane Claiborne and others did on Wall Street. If you haven't seen the video, check it out here. At first, I was quite troubled by the 'wasting' of $10,000, but then, as I thought about it again in light of what Ellul wrote in this section, I found it to be quite eschatological...and beautiful. God gives, and God gives abundantly...not just materially, but also in grace.
In our contemporary context, I do not think we should ever believe wealth is the end and that we should achieve it by any means. Rather, our wealth should be used in such a way to shadow the eschatological realm of God which is forming and transforming the here and now.
What did you all think?
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Dustin |
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Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:03 am |
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It seems that I am talking to myself, but that's okay 
I finished this week's section yesterday, and it was quite interesting.
The one thing I want to pull out of this section of Ellul's work was the idea of "profaning money." In many ways, most of us have made money something other than a means to an end. It has become something holy, spiritual, etc. It has a spiritual dimension, which Ellul believes in many ways is evil. For many of us wealthy (and yes, in reference to the rest of the world, we're wealthy), Western Christians, money has become our crutch, our safety net, that which guards against the future, and it has taken the place of dependence upon God. So, for Ellul, in order to subvert this power in our life, we must profane money.
How does one do this? Give it away! Give it away! Give it away! The biggest thing we can do to profane money is to give it in ways which are abnormal, misunderstood, etc.
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jbeel002 |
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:49 am |
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Totally agree! I find it ironic though that your post on "Giving it away" came on the day that we all have to give it away to "The Man!" But back to the original point, I think giving of ourselves and of our possessions is one of the two most beautiful things you can do as a human, and consequently, one of the two things that make us more and more like God.
I believe that giving and forgiving are perhaps the most godly things we can do as humans because they are the two things that go the most against our sinful, human nature. Giving requires selflessness and forgiving the same. So, right on brotha!
I'm new, but I will definitely be trying to stay up to date with discussion!
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Dustin |
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:29 am |
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jbeel,
I hope that you do return and offer your continued thoughts on this discussion. It's good to have new faces around here.
Now, on to Ellul:
I finished this past week's section on teaching children about money, and I'm wondering if any of you have any thoughts.
I have an eleven month old, and thus we have yet to begin teaching her directly about money. However, I know there are individuals who frequent this discussion room with older children, and I'm wondering if any of you have anything to offer in the way of insight into teaching children about money.
I would love to hear some ideas--and I'm sure others would as well.
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Alexa |
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Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:15 pm |
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I am wondering if anyone else is behind in the reading? I am sorry, but India threw me for a loop and as much as I want to interact, I am a week behind! Apologies!
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Dustin |
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:53 am |
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Alexa,
No problem. This thread will be open for discussion even a few weeks after the "official" reading schedule has ended. So, check back and interact when you can.
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Dustin |
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Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:31 am |
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Well, I finished Ellul's book yesterday, and was quite impressed with the last chapter. I truly enjoyed his dichotomy between the "rich" and the "poor," and how they are not always divided by socio-economic status--instead, it is also determined by our state of mind and motivation. Instead of simply trying to fix only the surface problem, it would seem Ellul is saying, we must also look deeper to the issues which lie below the surface.
Did anyone else see anything they would like to share?
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